fish finder arches or fish symbols

the word is that the arches are more acurate than the fish symbols can anyone tell me WHY surley the transducer picks up the fish and relays it to the head unit, then why should arches be more acurate when its just a preferd symbol within the unit the sensativity must be the key to getting the correct reading and not the symbols, ,,,, i am vexed and perplexed someone put me right

rodders

al join ya rodders...... [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Use my sounder to watch the depth and the rest I tend to ignore.
Remember trolling for ferox troot early season few tears ago, I put fish alarm on about two days later it went off all guns blazing two of us nearly jumped out the boat [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

As I understand it, having done a load of research prior to upgrading my Humminbird, on conventional down looking sonar, arches are created and displayed only when moving fish, of any size, pass through the sonar cone. Clumps of weed ect' can produce just as strong an echo - but are not moving, therefore appear as blobs.

Unfortunately, the software on the lower end "fish finders" will asign a fish symbol based only on the relative strength of the return signal, when fish ID is turned ON - giving returns from weed, fish and any other debris, as all being "fish" symbols - and thus confusion can arise. This was as appeared on my old Humminbird 110.

Turning "fish ID" OFF and looking for arches amonst the screen displayed returns will show actual real fish - the size of which is relative to the size of the arch. Playing with the sensitivity, and more importantly the "scroll speed", can help tremendously - try getting scroll speed (in numbers) close to the boat speed (in MPH)

If a pike is lying on the bottom - or is hovering in the water column - no arch will be seen as it is not moving quickly enough, relative to the transducer cone. These appear as a sausage shaped blob at best.

To see these more static fish effectively, you would need a unit that has "side scan" such as the Humminbird 798 (which is what I eventually went for) or better (which are to expensive for my pocket).

HTH ..... Tony

lakefisher wrote:As I understand it, having done a load of research prior to upgrading my Humminbird, on conventional down looking sonar, arches are created and displayed only when moving fish, of any size, pass through the sonar cone. Clumps of weed ect' can produce just as strong an echo - but are not moving, therefore appear as blobs.

Unfortunately, the software on the lower end "fish finders" will asign a fish symbol based only on the relative strength of the return signal, when fish ID is turned ON - giving returns from weed, fish and any other debris, as all being "fish" symbols - and thus confusion can arise. This was as appeared on my old Humminbird 110.

Turning "fish ID" OFF and looking for arches amonst the screen displayed returns will show actual real fish - the size of which is relative to the size of the arch. Playing with the sensitivity, and more importantly the "scroll speed", can help tremendously - try getting scroll speed (in numbers) close to the boat speed (in MPH)

If a pike is lying on the bottom - or is hovering in the water column - no arch will be seen as it is not moving quickly enough, relative to the transducer cone. These appear as a sausage shaped blob at best.

To see these more static fish effectively, you would need a unit that has "side scan" such as the Humminbird 798 (which is what I eventually went for) or better (which are to expensive for my pocket).

HTH ..... Tony

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lakefisher wrote:As I understand it, having done a load of research prior to upgrading my Humminbird, on conventional down looking sonar, arches are created and displayed only when moving fish, of any size, pass through the sonar cone. Clumps of weed ect' can produce just as strong an echo - but are not moving, therefore appear as blobs.

Unfortunately, the software on the lower end "fish finders" will asign a fish symbol based only on the relative strength of the return signal, when fish ID is turned ON - giving returns from weed, fish and any other debris, as all being "fish" symbols - and thus confusion can arise. This was as appeared on my old Humminbird 110.

Turning "fish ID" OFF and looking for arches amonst the screen displayed returns will show actual real fish - the size of which is relative to the size of the arch. Playing with the sensitivity, and more importantly the "scroll speed", can help tremendously - try getting scroll speed (in numbers) close to the boat speed (in MPH)

If a pike is lying on the bottom - or is hovering in the water column - no arch will be seen as it is not moving quickly enough, relative to the transducer cone. These appear as a sausage shaped blob at best.

To see these more static fish effectively, you would need a unit that has "side scan" such as the Humminbird 798 (which is what I eventually went for) or better (which are to expensive for my pocket).

HTH ..... Tony

Brilliant, What I've wanted to know for a while

well put mr lakefisher i have the grasp of it now my finder is what i would call at the higher end of the market{lowrance hd 11] so i will stick to the fish symbols much easier to spot with my bad eyes thanks for that

rodders

Don't quite follow that. I can see how that would work if the boat is stationary but if the boat is moving then a static fish is moving relative to the boat, if you see what i mean.

The other thing to think about is how high the fish is in the water. The arch shape is made by a fish moving through the cone that the transducer emits (or the cone moving across the fish). The cone is much smaller close to the transducer than it is deep in the water and so a fish occupy more of the cone near the top than it will near the bottom. The sounder screen does not follow the shape of the cone, it is basically rectangular and so the narrow cone is effectively stretched across the screen near to the top.
The end result is that a small fish passing under the boat close to the surface will become magnified and look much larger than it actually is.

rodders wrote:the word is that the arches are more acurate than the fish symbols can anyone tell me WHY

Because the fish symbols aren't always fish.

I neither know nor care why this should be, but it is definitely so.

when you have fish ID turned ON the finder interprets pretty much any return as a fish.

when turned off the stronger returns (shown as an arch) are when the sonar hits the air in a fishes swim blader. This is what causes the arch.

Depending on the speed your boat is moving, the speed a fish is moving and the ping speed of the sonar a small roach could appear to be a big fish for sure.

Really torn with this shit,i want to upgrade my sounder but do i really need to? used a friends sounder(better,newer) alongside mine & apart from better graphics,they did the same job....but that was feature finding,is looking for fish fooling yourself???

Ain't looking for an argument but should you really use them for "fishfinding" which is what they are,or feature finding???

cheers

bri

depends were your fishing Bri.

You have to use them to find fish on places like rutland and grafham as there are acres of water with zero fish in them. There are very few features.

I fish the trent a lot. There is mile upon mile of river without any fish then suddenly you find all the fish in a 200 yard section. I am definatley finding fish not features.

Rich

All you need to know Rodders is bananas under the boat = good. Bananas in the boat = blank.

Clarkey1972 wrote:depends were your fishing Bri.

You have to use them to find fish on places like rutland and grafham as there are acres of water with zero fish in them. There are very few features.

I fish the trent a lot. There is mile upon mile of river without any fish then suddenly you find all the fish in a 200 yard section. I am definatley finding fish not features.

Rich

Well that answers my question rich,i fish rivers too mainly but the point was do newer,better sounders do any more than say my old lowrance,i think they prob do but can i justify spending alot....probably not...but i might

andrew_nagel wrote:All you need to know Rodders is bananas under the boat = good. Bananas in the boat = blank.

That the old sailor coming out in you Andrew? Bananas in a boat are bad luck

DavyMc wrote:

andrew_nagel wrote:All you need to know Rodders is bananas under the boat = good. Bananas in the boat = blank.

That the old sailor coming in you Andrew? Bananas in a boat are bad luck

Deffo bad luck methinks!!

Oh bollocks, so you mean Windermere isn't absolutely stuffed full of fish as my Lowrance tells me??

rodders wrote:well put mr lakefisher i have the grasp of it now my finder is what i would call at the higher end of the market{lowrance hd 11] so i will stick to the fish symbols much easier to spot with my bad eyes thanks for that

rodders

Hi Rodders mate!

IMHO you're wasting your time with the fish symbols as that other chap put so well, a small or medium banana can mean ANY size of fish, and it IS a fish, but when you troll slowly and a "big banana" shows up, you know it can only be a Pike, and as such can try a bit harder in that area. You know from your own experience how devoid of fish large areas of the Loughs over here can be, helps if can pinpoint a big 'un! Me and David had some sucess jigging to some of these bananas after they had been spotted on the screen. Couple of years ago me and Pikey Phil were trolling a certain bay on Corrib, when I spotted a massive banana in 14' of water. As my bait, a (nearly) dead hybrid of about 10 ozs would be passing over first, I readied myself... The "deadbait" came to life, acting like a lunatic, but no take... Then Phil's manky herring passed over the same spot, think it went 26 or 27 Phil?

Fordey

lakefisher wrote:As I understand it, having done a load of research prior to upgrading my Humminbird, on conventional down looking sonar, arches are created and displayed only when moving fish, of any size, pass through the sonar cone. Clumps of weed ect' can produce just as strong an echo - but are not moving, therefore appear as blobs.

Unfortunately, the software on the lower end "fish finders" will asign a fish symbol based only on the relative strength of the return signal, when fish ID is turned ON - giving returns from weed, fish and any other debris, as all being "fish" symbols - and thus confusion can arise. This was as appeared on my old Humminbird 110.

Turning "fish ID" OFF and looking for arches amonst the screen displayed returns will show actual real fish - the size of which is relative to the size of the arch. Playing with the sensitivity, and more importantly the "scroll speed", can help tremendously - try getting scroll speed (in numbers) close to the boat speed (in MPH)

If a pike is lying on the bottom - or is hovering in the water column - no arch will be seen as it is not moving quickly enough, relative to the transducer cone. These appear as a sausage shaped blob at best.

To see these more static fish effectively, you would need a unit that has "side scan" such as the Humminbird 798 (which is what I eventually went for) or better (which are to expensive for my pocket).

HTH ..... Tony

Dont agree with that. Ive gone over arches on the bottom and then gone back over them to find them in the same position so are obviously not moving. Its the air in the swimbladder that causes the arch not a moving fish.

Ive shown this before, but here is a screen shot from a recent trip with what I think are zander laid up on the bottom and one in a hole on the bottom. Clearly these are arches. The noise is from the engine and in amongst that you can some red returns / arches that are suspended fish.

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Yes agree 100% with that. In fact, I would have thought moving fish would be extremely hard to capture on a finder? The rule of thumb I employ is, if I see a big banana whilst trolling, I expect it to be a decent Pike. A blob, or an incomplete signature, COULD be a 40... But probaby isn't! And my understanding was that the arch was related to the swim bladder hence the weak then strong then weak "signature"...?



Fordey

Clarkey1972 wrote:

lakefisher wrote:As I understand it, having done a load of research prior to upgrading my Humminbird, on conventional down looking sonar, arches are created and displayed only when moving fish, of any size, pass through the sonar cone. Clumps of weed ect' can produce just as strong an echo - but are not moving, therefore appear as blobs.

Unfortunately, the software on the lower end "fish finders" will asign a fish symbol based only on the relative strength of the return signal, when fish ID is turned ON - giving returns from weed, fish and any other debris, as all being "fish" symbols - and thus confusion can arise. This was as appeared on my old Humminbird 110.

Turning "fish ID" OFF and looking for arches amonst the screen displayed returns will show actual real fish - the size of which is relative to the size of the arch. Playing with the sensitivity, and more importantly the "scroll speed", can help tremendously - try getting scroll speed (in numbers) close to the boat speed (in MPH)

If a pike is lying on the bottom - or is hovering in the water column - no arch will be seen as it is not moving quickly enough, relative to the transducer cone. These appear as a sausage shaped blob at best.

To see these more static fish effectively, you would need a unit that has "side scan" such as the Humminbird 798 (which is what I eventually went for) or better (which are to expensive for my pocket).

HTH ..... Tony

Dont agree with that. Ive gone over arches on the bottom and then gone back over them to find them in the same position so are obviously not moving. Its the air in the swimbladder that causes the arch not a moving fish.

Ive shown this before, but here is a screen shot from a recent trip with what I think are zander laid up on the bottom and one in a hole on the bottom. Clearly these are arches. The noise is from the engine and in amongst that you can some red returns / arches that are suspended fish.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It must be a tremendous angling achievement to catch a fish that you can see on a screen

Andy.

AndyFrost wrote:It must be a tremendous angling achievement to catch a fish that you can see on a screen

Andy.

not really, unless you talking about bass pro fishin on the xbox that is

AndyFrost wrote:It must be a tremendous angling achievement to catch a fish that you can see on a screen

Andy.

You make me die frosty , you live in the dark ages , we can cover this subject tomorrow while blanking

jay wrote:

AndyFrost wrote:It must be a tremendous angling achievement to catch a fish that you can see on a screen

Andy.

You make me die frost , you live in the dark ages , we can cover this subject tomorrow while blanking [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

A brave man indeed.........spending a day afloat with mr Frost...no sharp objects, or shoe laces for you...[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Clarkey1972 wrote:

AndyFrost wrote:It must be a tremendous angling achievement to catch a fish that you can see on a screen

Andy.

not really, unless you talking about bass pro fishin on the xbox that is

Exactly the same thing.

Andy

remember me transducer going tits up on the start of a 3 day session,so no finder but had one of me most productive trips at the time,anouther time i forgot me battery and it was a trolling weekend still caught though ,OK i knew the water but do we rely on them to much ?????

they are a must on a new water [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It's worth noting that you will only get a "banana" (or arch) when the whole of the fish is inside the sonor cone. So, if you're only looking for complete arches you'll be missing a lot of fish;)

ONCE AGAIN VEXED AND PERPLEXED ........

rodders

rodders wrote:ONCE AGAIN VEXED AND PERPLEXED ........

rodders

IMHO the best approach is to turn the fish ID off as far to often fish signs appear when clearly there are no fish.As a feature they are more of a distraction than an aid. Essentially the fish signs are triggered by any likely return (just in case)...as a guide. It's the device interpreting the returns for you & it seems as though the fish ID has been set by the manufacturers so the machines live up to their names as "fish finders". In reality they are simple sonar devices.

With it turned off what is displayed is the actual "return" information for you to interpret.

A shoal of fish will show up as a "cloud", the intensity & size of which on the screen will depend on the number of fish & how tightly packed they are. A shoal of bigger fish (bream for example) on or near the bottom will show as a bumpy "ridge". Single bigger fish located off the bottom are displayed (ideally) as a banana shaped "arch". However, they are more likely to be displayed (especially in "shallow" water) as a "bits of an arch". In any event how a bigger fish is is displayed is dependant on how much of it comes within the sonor cone, how long it's in the cone for & how close it's come to the centre of the cone as the boat moves over it.

It's worth getting onto one of the US bass sites which have sections devoted to showing & interpreting sonar images.... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Grant